User talk:Carolus/archive25


Mass in D minor, Hob.XXII:11 (Haydn, Joseph) Audio

Hi Carolus, I was tempted to upload those files. But I can't locate a performer. Is it the reason that it has not yet been uploaded? - I think I'm not the first here who discovered that recording... --Ralph Theo Misch 23:38, 31 January 2011 (UTC) Update: Downloaded all the mp3 files - there appears: The English Concert, Trevor Pinnock etc. Is it really PD? What's about that license? Thanks! --Ralph Theo Misch 00:53, 1 February 2011 (UTC) has a very lax standard for recordings. I'm a bit surprised they haven't been sued yet as there are things up there (like Trevor Pinnock / English Concert recordings) that are not by any stretch of the imagination public domain. I would be extremely careful about anything you find there. The University of Chicago Orchestra recordings are OK because the orchestra has put them up on themselves and released them under a CC license. Carolus 03:52, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Let sleeping dogs lie... Thanks again! --Ralph Theo Misch 23:41, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Amen. I also noticed the latest versions of Köchel, the Schmieder BWV catalog, McCorkle Brahms catalogue, etc. I am quite certain none of these are PD either. Carolus 23:44, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I think I know the uploader of Schmieder and Köchel (not me!!). But according to an old German saying: Talk is silence, silver is golden. ;) --Ralph Theo Misch 00:17, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

The uploader has rendered a great service, as those books are absurdly expensive to purchase. Needless to say, I'm not telling anyone. Carolus 00:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Of course... --Ralph Theo Misch 00:26, 2 February 2011 (UTC)


Hi Carolus. Sorry for the (semi) naive question, but do you know what the best source would be for me to find the most up to date information on the standard for Schubert's work titles, etc. I was planning on cleaning his category up, and I've graduated from the trivialities of capitalization and key signatures ;-) Cheers, Lndlewis10 01:02, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the opus numbers have been pretty much deprecated by now, with the Deutsch numbering preferred. Even so, we still employ opus numbers for some titles as they are so well-known that way. I recommend that you check in with p.davydov, KGill and others who are probably more up-to-date on the latest developments than I am. If you like, consider posting a thread on the forums about the issue. Just keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of selecting a work title, etc. is to make something easy to find for folks visiting the site, so sometimes a little inconsistency is required to achieve this goal (though we try to avoid it as a general rule). Carolus 03:37, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Missa Crux fidelis

for 3 equal voices and organ by Jean-Marie Plum (died in 1944), Op.125: Is Lemoine a smooth operator like Enoch, or may I upload those typesets I've made for the private rehearsal of my women (you know what I mean)? - I think it's absolutely rare.... --Ralph Theo Misch 00:00, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Lemoine is not very consistent about renewals, though they did issue the score with a proper notice. Problem is, we have no way to check on renewals for things issued 1923-1942 (yet). Just recently, the copyright office has scanned the volumes 1971-1977 for music renewals (covering items published 1943-1949/50) and uploaded them to So, the Plum would be subject to the notorious [TB] for the time being. Carolus 00:06, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

That's a pity. But I'll keep it carefully. Thanks! --Ralph Theo Misch 00:12, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Hahn Melodies, Vols. 1 and 2

I contacted Heugel, and they sent me the following in an email... "Thank you for your e-mail and interest in our publications. The first volume has a 1896 copyright and second volume 1900." --Haydenmuhl 08:40, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

That's a little nonsensical as there are items first published in 1917 and 1918 included in volume 2. It's not a big deal, as we can probably track down the dates they issued the volumes in Hofmeister and other sources eventually. Thanks for checking. Carolus 21:45, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Sounds like a library 1900 to me ( in, sometime during the 20th century), though odd to hear a publisher using it. Eric 11:35, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Saran Fantasie

Thank you for adding the "Arrangements and Transcriptions" etc. on the Saran Fantasie - I got sidetracked and it was just an oversight, I understand it should have been there. Cheers! Massenetique talk email 05:33, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I figured you must have gotten distracted - easy enough to do around here! Carolus 00:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Die Amerikanerin

Dear Carolus! I did a mistake. "Die Amerikanerin" is a composition by Johann Christoph Freidrich Bach and not by Johann Christian Bach. Sorry.

No problem. Thanks for letting me know. Carolus 00:52, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Carlo Milanuzzi da Santa Natoglia

Hi Carl, I added the ISBN reference of the full book (from the publisher's website) to all pages, but I'm not sure about the way to link it to Amazon. Max a.k.a. --Choralia 06:46, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I can take care of it (hopefully) from this point. Depends on if it's in Amazon's DB. If not we can link to somewhere else. Carolus 00:53, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The publisher's website is mentioned above. Unfortunately the website in Italian only. --Choralia 06:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Violin Sonata in E major (Freithoff, Johan Henrik)

Hi Carolus. I'm wondering why you decided to tag the file as V/V/C instead of V/V/V ? The work has been published several times before (in fact, I have an edition edited by Oystein Gaukstad). It's also been published in complete work editions, such as the one published by Norvegica in 1977. I'm sure you have good reason though ;) Lndlewis10 01:49, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I was unaware of the publication. V/V/V is therefore correct. Carolus 01:50, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

RE.: Lyonel Feininger

I found some information at German sites 1 ,2 and at google books:
Feininger's fugues were first performed by himself in 1924 (Weimar, Meistersaal of the Bauhaus). The first source only mentions the first piece (or A first piece - Fuge I.?) ("Im Dezember 1924 erlebte das erste Stück von ihm die öffentliche Uraufführung im Meistersaal des Bauhauses"). According to the 2nd source Willi Apel performed them all ("1924 Erste öffentliche Aufführung der Fugen im Meistersaal des Bauhauses durch Willi Apel am 3. Dezember."). The referring page at google says that F. performed his fugues in general. Well - the one does not exclude the other. Maybe I'll find some more. Thanks for your research! --Ralph Theo Misch 14:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The general information on manuscript copyright for relatively recently-deceased composers is very useful in my opinion- in the literal sense that I think I have just found another use for it... :) Eric 15:05, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Performance by Willi Apel: In this article there is a mention only of the Fuge IX; and: 'Fuge VI was the only work that was edited during his lifetime' (in 1925). Indeed - an interesting matter. I've also found Fuge nos. 2 and 3 (in the cellar ;) ) --Ralph Theo Misch 16:06, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. So, it looks like there were some public performances of all the fugues and that Fugue VI was possibly published (=edited) in 1925. I'll have to read over the relevant section of Canada's law, but I think that performances and recordings count as publication (for the purpose of calculating copyright terms) only where the last surviving contributor has been dead more than 50 years. The apparent idea behind this provision was to prevent absurd situations arising whereby a manuscript by someone like Mozart is discovered and a corporate entity can then claim a full copyright on the work for 50 years after publication. If a public performance or recording took place, the editio princeps rule does not apply. As I understand it, the rule does apply if the first publication happens less than 50 years after the composer's death. Stay tuned.... PS: Do you happen to be scanning from the 1971 volume? If so, the notice particulars on that volume are very important for USA status, since Feininger was a US citizen. Carolus 05:00, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure - I only scanned copies. But the postmark at the bottom of some of those copies is by the (old?) music library of Düsseldorf. So I had a look at the catalogue of the (new?) public library there - and found that edition by Feininger's son Laurence (Tutzing: Schneider, 1971). It's not available for home lending. That would explain why the preceding owner ordered the copies.
On the other hand: Regarding some handwritten remarks it appears as if Feininger (father) made several copies of some fugues and dedicated them to friends etc.: "Diese erste Reinschrift gehört m. l. Peter(?)! 24.VI. 22" 'This first clean copy belongs to my dear ..." (Fuge III.).
All I have to do now is to ask Düsseldorf, if they have some further material in the archive. --Ralph Theo Misch 13:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Just called. The librarian was so kind to have a look at that edition: the only notice is "Tutzing, Schneider (or the other way round), 1971". He is absolutely sure that there isn't any further material in the archive. However he couldn't find the dedication at Fuge III. Perhaps I'll go to there (only half an hour).... --Ralph Theo Misch 14:56, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

The plot thickens..... I'll see if I can locate a copy here in the USA. Might be interesting to see the exact wording and location of the notice. Carolus 23:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The number of copies published is only 500. Tomorrow I'll go to Düsseldorf - they have no.3. I'll make copies, because I don't want to drag my whole equipment along (don't know where I'll find a parking place there...) --Ralph Theo Misch 23:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I didn't copy the entire edition - time and coins run dry :{. But that's no problem; I'll continue if necessary.
This may be the solution of the riddle: I've found a slipcase containing single facsimiles and a preface by Laurence. Some fugues are given in different versions and copies - with or without dedications. It's absolutely clear: All copies (also the uploaded Fuge I.) are from this edition. --Ralph Theo Misch 23:44, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I've read the preface (unfortunately only in German): I don't know how to coach my impressions in words. It's absolutely necessary to translate it (moreover 5 unedited drawings are integrated). I've already found a person for that job :)) Please have a look here. --Ralph Theo Misch 23:58, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

The sample is helpful. Note the copyright notice found on the second page - the verso of the title page. This probably qualifies under US law at the time (1971). Did they happen to repeat the notice on the first page of music? If so, it absolutely qualifies. I'll do a little research on the notice-position issue. The requirement under the 1909 law (the one in force in 1971) was that the notice would appear on the title page and/or the first music page. This requirement was loosened for works issued outside the USA starting in 1955 with the UCC treaty, so I expect the notice found on the verso of the title page might meet the treaty requirement. Thanks, Carolus 00:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

It may depend on the definition of a title page - the fist page is only: "Das Musikalische Werk Lyonel Feiningers". The 2nd page is a portrait of F. (a photography), and the 3rd is the first of the sample I've scanned. There isn't any CR notice on the music pages. --Ralph Theo Misch 01:17, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

That title page is part of the preface, an own issue (insert, inlay?). Each fugue is such an own element. --Ralph Theo Misch 01:28, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The "title page" would be the page that lists the complete title of the book, the author's name, editor's name, and publisher. The first page of the sample you uploaded qualifies as a title page, even if it is not the very first page after opening the cover. Carolus 01:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I anticipated as much. But I wasn't sure--Ralph Theo Misch 01:36, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Pan og Syrinx

Nielsen! Please tell me if messed something up.-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 03:25, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Just about perfect! I'll upload some more to the server soon, though that might not be necessary as they appear to have locked the PDFs over at their site at last - so just obtain directly from there now. Carolus 06:06, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

OK. Thanks (you mean "unlocked," right?)-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 06:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

No, the files are supposed to be locked (to prevent modifications - printing is allowed). I checked on some files over there a couple of days ago and noticed they were locked, which was not the case previously. I mentioned this (the unlocked state of files on their own site) to Niels Krabbe, who is in charge of the project. I assumed he had the files over there replaced with locked versions. if not, I'll have to lock some more and upload them to the FTP server. Carolus 06:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I see.-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 06:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


Hi Carolus. Cypressdome has now accepted the admin nomination here; if you wouldn't mind, would you please change his rights? Thanks, KGill talk email 02:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll change ASAP. Carolus 04:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Holst, 3 Festival Choruses

Dear Carolus, you did some work on this page in December. I can't quite work out why there's no file on it now, because I can't see from the logs that anything was deleted, but I'm assuming there was a file on it when you changed the title to the larger work title. It's been nearly two months, should I delete the page? Steltz 19:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The file previously on the page should have been moved to IMSLP·US, to allow it to be hosted at all; perhaps this hasn’t happened yet? (It was a piano arrangement of No. 1 of the set, “Let all mortal flesh keep silence”.) Cheers Philip @ © talk 23:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

PML is correct. I cannot remember who uploaded it right now, but I thought it was someone who also uploaded items to the USA server. The arrangement was by Vally Lasker so it is not free in Canada. Carolus 01:15, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I've left a message on Rah9639 that the US server is up and running, so he can re-load the piece. Steltz 05:47, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Hofmeister online

was down for the last month (the scans at ONB were available but the transcriptions and search feature hosted at were offline) but is back up now, just noticed... good thing, I think. Eric 02:26, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I was wondering when they'd get it back up again! Carolus 02:28, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I was even wondering if. Given how many links from here and Wikipedia, and elsewhere, there now are to their site and the ONB scans, and the potential demand (even from a relatively small potential interested population, only relatively small?...) - the bandwidth demand (terminology?) may be a problem for them. (Or not; I don't know how these things work!) Glad of it, of course! Eric 02:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

RE2: Feininger

Hi Carolus, despite TB: research was anything but useless. Thanks for your commitment! --Ralph Theo Misch 23:31, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Standardizing/Consolidating Enoch plate tables

I thought I'd run this by you and Squin before I went ahead with this since both of you have the most number of edits to the Enoch page. Do you have any objections to merging the plate tables for Enoch into one, à la Durand and others? Since these plates are sequential and only the imprint varies based on date (again, à la Durand), it would seem to be an easy integration that would bring this page in-line with others. This, plus I'd like to start walking through the wiki and harvesting the various Enoch plates which aren't included in this page at some point in the future. Acceptable? Daphnis 04:21, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

I see no problem with the idea at all. As far as I can tell, Enoch just changed their prefixes when the company name changed. That seems to have been a fairly consistent practice of French publishers. Carolus 04:42, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, this was a common practice, even to the extent where they remained sequential even after purchasing another publisher's catalog. I'll make the merge sometime soon. Thanks. Daphnis 04:49, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Done. I may take a break from the Durand harvesting to complete the comparatively small amount we have by Enoch. Daphnis 04:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Tournemire's posthumous works

Since several of his works first published in 1970 fall under the Editio princeps rubric and are now free in Canada, is there a problem with my adding them? Daphnis 04:52, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

It should be OK, as they were all surely performed during the composer's lifetime. I recently did a little more study on the issue of posthumous publication in Canada. It would appear there is no exemption to the performance / distribution rule serving as publication for the purpose of calculating term. The idea appears to have been to bring their law into a state similar to that for the USA as of 1/1/2003 - basically no protection beyond lifetime plus 50 years. Carolus 04:58, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
But EU status will still be blocked as will US. At least they'll be here. Daphnis 05:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it will definitely be an EU-server item. Carolus 05:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
That's good enough for the time being. Daphnis 05:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Giovanni Daelli (d. 1860) posthumous work

I've got a fantasy on Verdi's Rigoletto by composer Daelli first published in '82 as "edited" by Gunther Joppig and published by our buddies at UE. There are no notes as to what or how the piece was edited, but presumably the common brackets are employed to indicate this, although these are sparse and don't really add anything that isn't already apparent. Should I proceed? Daphnis 03:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Under Canada's law, if this work was performed before the composer died, it is considered as having been published before his death. If it was first "published, performed or delivered" between 1860 and 1997, the 50-year clock runs from the date of first publication, performance or delivery. I somehow doubt that the work was legally unpublished in Canada until 1982. The 25-year editio princeps term in the EU expired on January 1. Protected until 1/1/2049 in USA. Post away. It will be on EU server. Carolus 05:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Sigfried Wagner's Symphony in C

Hello Carolus, I have a scan of the work. According the CD booklet it was published by Brockhaus in 1986 after the original manuscript score. This edition however has a c1984 claim. It seems to be a handwritten copy, maybe intended as predecessor of the real conducting score ?! Do you know more about this edition? Anyway, hopefully it's the first edition, then c1984 would be ok for EU/Canada. Hobbypianist 21:49, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll look this up. Best case scenario, it would be free in Canada (due to performance while composer was alive) and EU (due to publication over 25 years ago). In either case (1984 or 1986) it would be under copyright in USA until 2049. Carolus 04:39, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


OK, I believe after much ado we now have a complete Durand plate page, all 112KB of it. From now on, I'd like to propose that any future uploads and uploaders add any new plates to this page. Doing so ensures we keep a comprehensive and updated list for dating and reference. Daphnis 00:47, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

de Lange

Good point- I'm not sure how many movements there are. It looks like the Moderato (in D minor actually- I should have looked at it more closely before naming it, if so) is a typical concerto first movement, with instructions at the end to be followed by a slow movement and finale, but it could be preceded by an introductory movement, and I'll have to see if I can find a source (maybe the Danish library) that has a movement listing for it :) Eric 05:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Romantic concertos like that are more likely than others to have odd numbers of movements, more so later than earlier. There's also another issue about using numbers (even Roman numbers) in the 4-level hierarchy which designates sections of a larger work - it confuses the "Contents" designations (like 1.1.2 etc.) which appear at the top of the page. That's another reason we avoid using the numbers alone. These work OK if you employ "Movement II: Adagio" or "No.1" Carolus 05:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Korean mirror

Carolus: I can't seem to find the thread that we talked about over the phone... could you give me a link? --Feldmahler 23:04, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I thought it was this thread, but I’m wondering if it hasn’t been edited by someone. I certainly recall someone mentioning Korea, but a search results in no 2011 posts. Curious! Philip @ © talk 00:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
It was actually once on this thread, and the poster was delphixe, who apparently removed it. Carolus 01:04, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
That's too bad... we'll have to wait for another offer I guess. But we have time :) --Feldmahler 05:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
I think he wants to be PMed about it, if my memory serves me correctly. I'll go over to the forum and send him a message with instructions to contact you. Carolus 05:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Evette & Schaeffer page

Carolus, I'd like to start a publisher's page for Evette et Schaeffer. Would you like to do the honors so I can start adding plates, and do you have the volume of the Lesure (?) series that covers them? Daphnis 04:58, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Started (as you can see from the link). No, I unfortunately do not have that book. I was thinking about contacting Minkoff to see if we could scan a copy and make it available here, as it is long out of print. Carolus 05:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I've gone through the site and added all we have and imported everything Sibley has as well, also adding those to the publisher's page. That'd be great if they'd agree to us hosting either one, both, or portions of the book. Daphnis 02:01, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


would you please have a look at this? It seems rather odd. Thanks! --Ralph Theo Misch 21:58, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

A mere reprint of Belaieff or Jurgenson. Absolutely public domain worldwide. Carolus 22:32, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! - Then I'll start. --Ralph Theo Misch 22:40, 26 February 2011 (UTC)