User talk:Carolus/archiveTroyens

Les Troyens

Should be completely up soon...might we re-activate for this? I'm sure Serenessima might covet a rather rare score :)-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 03:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed it is now all up!-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 02:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
And now for the million dollar question--Is there any way we could justify marking the NBE 1969 print of the full score as free in Canada and the US? I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be entitled to 50 years in Canada, but how about the US? Daphnis 14:03, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Since it was published after 1963 - the last date renewals were actually required - and no doubt bears a fully compliant copyright notice. I don't think we could do it without actually going to court to prove that the edition failed to meet the threshold of originality established under the Feist vs. Rural decision. The fact that it was actually published in its complete form by Berlioz himself - even as a vocal score - would bolster that argument. The other possibility would be to contact Hugh MacDonald. He might be able to persuade Baerenreiter to grant permission for the USA, which is basically the only country in the world where it is actually protected. Carolus 14:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Then I wonder if it would be worthwhile to contact him seeking permission. If such permission is granted, then I would most certainly scan it. Otherwise, I see no reason to spend countless hours on something no one can use. If you think there's a good shot at convincing him and Bärenreiter, could either yourself or Philip (if you'd be interested) draft a letter? Daphnis 14:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I have a contact at Washington University, which is where Hugh MacDonald teaches. I will ask if this is a possible avenue to pursue. It would certainly be a wonderful addition. Carolus 14:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it certainly would. Thanks and keep me posted. Daphnis 14:34, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I’m late to the party, it seems. What I’d be worried about with the NBE (a fair amount of which is now PD in Germany, the country of origin) is that Bärenreiter obviously have an interest in selling their stock, and their full score (admittedly with all the appendices and critical apparatus) is not cheap at €546—. I imagine they are quite glad of the US status for their post-1963 stock. What might be of help is that several years after the NBE edition came out, Eulenberg obviously obtained permission to reprint miniature scores of the main musical volumes (2a and 2b), but this score must have rushed out the door like hot cakes and is presumably only available second-hand these days. Rather than allowing Serenissima to do a similar reprint, the Bärenreiter view might be that this is something they want to do bring back “in house” with their Taschenpartitur series (of which only four of the Berlioz NBE scores have so far been issued, even though numbers in the series appear to have been reserved: the Symphonie fantastique, Requiem, Messe solenelle, and Roméo et Juliette). I’m happy to help draft something but I’m not sure whether we’re angling to host a PDF here or do a PLP print run. Philip Legge @ © talk 00:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Look, something is better than nothing. I honestly would prefer a no-strings-attached PLP score to a barenreiter reprint which might involve a licensing fee.-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 14:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

@PML. I wasn't thinking of asking for reprint permission at this stage - which could only come from Baerenreiter anyway - but only for permission to post the MacDonald's NBE Les Troyens volumes (including preface, etc.) here on the wiki. Obviously, we'd be perfectly fine with including a Sheet Music Plus link for the scores so that those interested (who have that much money for pocket change!) could purchase them. Printing out a score of that size is not a task for the feint of heart in any case. What about the possibility of having a locked PDF available whose printing features were disabled? The Choudens/Kalmus score of Les Troyens à Carthage is really a pretty rough copy over and above the numerous issues documented by PML. At any rate, I've left a message for my contact in the music department so I'll soon hopefully be able to get a sense of how approachable MacDonald might be towards having his work posted here. Carolus 16:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi guys. Any word on Mr. MacDonald? Daphnis 15:36, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

No word yet, but I am somewhat hopeful as Mr. MacDonald has a reputation for being very congenial and helpful. If he can persuade Baerenreiter to relent and grant permission, I might work. Carolus 15:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I spoke with Hugh MacDonald last week, who is extremely gracious and generally sympathetic. The big caveat, of course, is that he has no actual control. He was kind enough to give me the e-mail of a person I can contact at Baerenreiter, so the next step will commence shortly. We'll soon see if Baerenreiter hates this site as much as other music publishers do. Carolus 23:31, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Any word yet from the folks at Bärenreiter? Daphnis 21:00, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

They're on vacation. I will not be hearing anything until September at earliest. Carolus 22:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

September?-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 20:05, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Bump. Daphnis 06:22, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. I need to send a reminder. Carolus 06:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Another bump...Daphnis 20:30, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I think they would like for us to vanish. No response. Carolus 03:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Not entirely surprising, but disappointing. Philip @ © talk 03:54, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
It seems to be the nature of things that certain items of interest simply won’t go away. Madcapellan has recently done a wonderful job on Rienzi, and then posed a question in the forums asking specifically which NBE volumes had become public domain in Germany (my answer, volumes 2a–c, 3, 5, 8a, 9, 10, 13, 16, and 19). We’ve since received a scan of Julian Rushton’s edition of the Huit scènes de Faust, NBE vol.5, so it would not surprise me terribly to soon discover ourselves hosting perhaps as much as 2,300 pages of music from the NBE – very probably including Les Troyens. Stay tuned! Philip @ © talk 00:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
It is odd how that works out. However, they can't get away from the fact that a fair segment of the NBA is already free in the EU due to the combination of Germany's section 70 and the EU's directive. Under section 70, it's protected for 25 years from date of publication. It's not protected longer anywhere else in the EU, BTW as the EU directive states that member states have the option of establishing a term of up to 30 years from publication for works of this nature. It's only 20 years in Italy and 25 in the UK as a typographical copyright. As far as I know, no other EU country even has a provision for the protection of such editions. Carolus 01:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
O admirabile die! Philip @ © talk 04:51, 13 July 2011 (UTC)