User talk:Carolus/archive13


Smetana - Má vlast (Eulenburg)

Carolus, what can you tell me about this 6 volume edition by Eulenburg and revised by Vilem Zemanek? Our local library has this, and so since this represents a significant gap in our collection, I'll probably scan all 6 volumes, unless there is some other editor/edition I should focus my attention on. Daphnis 02:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how old that edition is, or even if it is still under copyright. I happen to own a copy of the 1951 Orbis score of the entire cycle edited by Bartos (in a 1987 printing) which I am planning to scan at some point in the near future. I know that this edition was not renewed and is completely free in the USA (and elsewhere). The parts we have are Breitkopf for the 2 popular movements (2 and 4) and Urbanek for the remainder. It's possible the Eulenburg score is a derivative of the scores matching the parts we have, which would be another reason to add them. Carolus 03:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Then what's your verdict, add, or wait for Orbis? Daphnis 03:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Add unless there's a compelling reason not to - like a copyright claim between 1923-1949, or 1964 and after. We can check the renewal of any claim between 1950 and 1963 online. Eulenburg doesn't put claims on their score very much, but now and again you find one. My bet is that it's fair game. Carolus 03:17, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I'll grab 'em tomorrow and take a look. Thanks. Daphnis 03:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

No copyright date mentioned on any of the numbers, and editorial comments in preface dated 1914. Looks free and clear. Daphnis 14:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Full speed ahead! Carolus 06:07, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


I opened a new header - the other was getting crowded. A little update:

  1. There's no way that we can finish by the end of the year, so I moved the date.
  2. Schumann and Saint-Saens are finished, alongside Scriabin, Nielsen, etc. (EDIT: +Sibelius o.O. Thanks Horndude!)
  3. Horndude has just cleared out the Busoni through Donizetti section (including Cherubini and Chopin) of the FTP; I don't know if that's all we have of them.
  4. Beethoven, Berlioz, and Brahms are almost done (Parts for the Berlioz Requiem were a beast; last major work of them)

Basically, more files are always good, but you should continue to upload things (we're not done with Tchaikovsky yet, right?)!-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 14:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll finish up Tchaikovsky this week - and add some more to the FTP. Haydn and other misc. items. We have about 65% of the collection in place. There will not be that much more, really. There are Mozart symphonies in the Breitkopf edition (which are still used by most orchestras around the world) which I'll add after Haydn. Carolus 03:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Huh? I thought it was 600 pieces...we have about 250.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 03:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll have to count them up. Maybe it's because so many pf the Mozart, Haydn and Bach pieces consist of only a few files. Carolus 03:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC) Update: 601 pieces altogether. I'll be adding some more this weekend. Sometimes I hate having to work at my day-job instead of goofing off over here!! Carolus 05:00, 9 December 2009 (UTC) Update: There are 601 works altogether. However when you factor in Milhaud, Stravinsky and a couple of other odd composers, it's around 580 available for IMSLP. Carolus 20:33, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Brahms Hungarian Dances DONE (I did it just to see the "66 files" indicator)!-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 03:09, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Beethoven done. I'm not going anywhere near the Tragic Overture...I'll finish up Weber later too.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 16:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Or not. The trumpet part of Symphony No.1 has a 5.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 17:47, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll fix the trumpet part later today. Thanks for finding the logo. In all of the files reviewed, I think its the second one found so far. That's an excellent percentage removed. Carolus 20:31, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Quite. Checking through sleeping beauty must have been a beast (I know gurrelieder was)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 03:56, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

BTW, while you're at it, could you find some sort of publisher information for that Weber? I can't make heads or tails of it. Same with the Elgar Serenade for Strings (already up)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 04:12, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Now we've dropped below 50 items[EDIT: 25(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 02:57, 26 December 2009 (UTC) (thanks again, horndude!) :O-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 17:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Something else- the 2nd Violin part is missing for Elgar's Falstaff, Op.68. In the meantime, I'll submit the rest, but could you put it on the FTP? KGill talk email 17:43, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Violin 2 of Falstaff is defective in the OMCDL original, apparently. Half the page is solid black. It was the same in both the OM Project file and in the Violin file uploaded by someone else. BTW, Strauss, Mozart and Haydn are up. Carolus 01:01, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! KGill talk email 01:43, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll get to that when I'm not busy being punished for vacation ;)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 03:39, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Deletion request


I would like the partial score for Pugni's "The Little Humpbacked Horse" removed. I just realized that it contains excerpts from a book I am working on. ---MrLopez2681 00:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I was going to ask if you had the entire score in the original Stellovsky engraving, which is different from the later Gutheil issue. The file that's there does not appear something that was actually published that way by Stellovsky, though publisher often issued "Selections" form large works like ballets or operas. Carolus 03:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Schubert, Franz, Schlachtlied, D.912, Version with Piano or Physharmonica ad lib.

Hello, Carolus, I've found it here: All the best --Ralph Theo Misch 00:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Excellent addition. I wasn't even ware that this version was around. Thanks! Carolus 04:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Recorder books

Would you mind giving your opinion on this? (At least, on the one for which the link to a scan of the title page is given.) Probably a critical edition (Hofmeister, ed. Paul Donath), published 1965, Heft II published 1968. Thanks, KGill talk email 20:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

They should be OK. See my post on the forums. Carolus 04:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

U.S.A. Renewals

Hi Carolus

  1. I made a couple of templates to mark editions as checked / not renewed and checked/renewed. I have used these on a few 'random' works in the library that I checked last week. I think perlner666 has retagged the copyright on some of these but missed retagging those on this page: Piano Transcriptions (Bach) (Friedman, Ignaz)
  2. He also retagged the Piano 4 hands version of Pini di Roma (Respighi, Ottorino). I didn't check this one, (I only looked specifically for the orechestral version) - in fact I think it is one of the arrangements that had its copyright renewed, and should therefore remain [TB].

Thanks. --Homerdundas 08:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Sorry, I was in a rush!-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 03:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I am extremely leary of the claim for no renewal on the Respighi. The renewal could have been filed in 1952 or 1953. Kalmus would have reprinted this title for absolute certain if it were free. It's way too popular for them not to have done so. I am going to re-tag this and remove the template until I can call a personal contact there who will let me know for sure. Carolus 04:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking about that. Also, if that one turns out to have something, I'm minded to judge the others (no offence!)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 04:32, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The other items are perfectly believable - the Friedman transcriptions issued by Allans, for example. A high-profile work like Pini di Roma is not going to be ignored by a company as on-the-ball as Ricordi. I am willing to bet that they probably renewed both the full score and the piano arrangement in the same document.

(Homer again) The trouble of looking for renewals - is that of trying to prove a negative. In theory, there should be a card for each of the creator's names, one for title, one for publisher - some of the renewals were not listed under title or creator - only publisher! I even found some cards out of order in the drawers. Obviously, I only concluded no renewal if all turned up empty. The catalogues are in blocks of years - so about 10 years up to '54 are all in one catalogue. If the renewal is on a boundary - you have to search both blocks. On the Respighi - I immediately defer to your opinion, Carolus, it was a surprise to find it missing.
It's still worth the time, I think. I managed to look up 36 works in the two hours I spent there (not all IMSLP). If I find myself there again, I will try harder to search for the smaller publishers that would have been less likely to file renewals.--Homerdundas 06:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely worth the time - and thank you very much for all the hard work! If it turns out you're correct on Pini di Roma, I will ask that you get a free score and set of parts from Kalmus when they print it. However, as you pointed out, the fact that you didn't find a renewal - despite a diligent search - is not an absolute guarantee that no renewal as actually filed. Did you happen to check any Medtner titles? My suspicion is that few if any of his were renewed. Carolus 06:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I just looked up one: Violin Sonata No.3, Op.57 (Medtner, Nikolai Karlovich), and it's as you suspected. --Homerdundas 07:47, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


  1. How about those scores suggested on the forums, plus the Dvoraks, plus Les Troyens when it's up (and probably Ma Vlast too)?
  2. Roughly how long does it take for them to come up with a score after you send them the list? How exactly does this work?-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 03:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The Dvorak is already available. So is Moldau (a Serenissima imprint). Part of the process is determining if there is already a reasonably priced score readily available, which there wasn't in the case of Dvorak. It's sort of pointless to go head-to-head with Dover, who typically prints 3000 copies at a time, which means their unit cost is amazingly cheap. Another factor is the quality of the scan available, or if they need to make a scan themselves (which then then donate to IMSLP, as with Damnation de Faust). Another issue is if there is something else being published (like a new critical edition of Paine's Mass in D minor) which is taking up a lot of time, etc. Carolus 06:51, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

(I meant the symphonic poems)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 16:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The symphonic poems are a very interesting possibility also. Under very serious consideration at the moment. Carolus 05:59, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

I find it very strange that Dover has reprinted neither those nor Ma Vlast. It seems that there is some sort of bias against Czech symphonic poems...;)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 19:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Ma Vlast is up.-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 05:53, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Tellier / Heugel

Hi Carolus. I noticed on the Chansons by Paul Delmet that you assume from the score it was published first by Heugel and reissued by Tellier. It might be different. It seems that most individual songs by Delmet were published by Enoch. The collection of Chansons might have been initiated by Henri Tellier who was an active publisher from 1876 until his bankrupt in 1898, with his stocks being then bought by Heugel. Tellier had been the publisher of Gustave Charpentier (in particular Impressions d'Italie, in 1892), Anton Rubinstein and Augusta Holmes. Thus my guess is that it is not possible that the collection of Chansons was first published by Heugel and then reissued by Tellier. If it has been republished, it must be the other way round : Heugel must have reissued Tellier's edition. I don't think it matters a lot for this work, but this information can be of use at IMSLP where you guys seem very keen on accurate publisher information.--Jean-Séb 10:51, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this info, Jean-Séb, I mistakenly thought that Tellier had produced this under license from Heugel, which he did with a number of low-priced opera vocal scores (not only Heugel, but Choudens and Lemoine also). I did not know that he had gone bankrupt in 1898. Regards, Carolus 05:50, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Motetto: Hic est beatissimus Evangelista (Nanino, Giovanni Maria)

Hi Carolus,

I just don't know what do do: Monochrome doesn't seem to be the best way to scan letterpress printings. Though I'm not really content with both results (brightness etc.), I added the color scan for comparison. MUSICA DIVINA is a rare edition and I would like to do my best to save it here. What do you think? Thanks and regards --Ralph Theo Misch 00:38, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

It really doesn't look bad, though it does seem to thicken things some. Perhaps a grayscale instead of monochrome? You could also set up a dual file type of thing as we did with some of the Liszt first editions from Juilliard: Color scan as top file, with monochrome beneath for printing. Use the color thumbnail only. I did this to what you posted so you can see what you think. You might want to ask Daphnis to see if he has any tricks up his sleeve for scanning. Carolus 06:19, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Regards from white Germany --Ralph Theo Misch 00:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Category:Christian Hymn

Dear Carolus, how did you format the birth and death dates for Category:Christian Hymn? Originally, the text read "c. 70 - present." You see, KGill and another user meddled with the pages, and somehow the category page got deleted. I just recreated it, and I need your help. Thanks, ClassicalComposers 17:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I have a look. Instead of the day/month/year layout for birth and death dates, simply use "Birth date" and "Death date". Carolus 03:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC). BTW, I wonder if a better category for that particular item might be something like: Category:Traditional: Christmas Carols Carolus 04:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC) UPDATE: The particular arrangement is by Edward Shippen Barnes (1887-1958) and first published in 1937 by F.H. Revell Co. in The New Church Hymnal. It is entirely possible, even likely, that Barnes' arrangement is still under copyright in the USA and in the EU. You will need to find an older setting of the tune, which is a traditional French carol entitled Les Anges dans nos Campagnes to post here for download. Carolus 05:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I already had the file removed. ClassicalComposers

Messed up

Just messed up composer name.

Should be Arimino Category:Armino, Ludvicus de. Can you correct please? Sorry. :-(

Done. KGill talk email 01:10, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks like you (or someone) already took care of it! Carolus 03:58, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Copyright claim line removed

Hi. The two J Strauss Jr scores I just uploaed did have a single line saying exactly:

© Copyright by Universal Edition A.G., Wien

Which I removed. I hope that's ok. - there was no year listed etc.

Ischler Walzer, Op. posth. (Strauss Jr., Johann) and Abschieds-Walzer, Op. posth. (Strauss Jr., Johann)

--Homerdundas 02:52, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

You have new messages
Hello, Carolus. You have new messages at ClassicalComposers's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{newmessages}} template.

Mahler Lieder fits where?

Where do the parts in the Mahler-Lieder directory fit? Does Songs_(Mahler,_Gustav) make sense? I haven't found the cello part already uploaded so I'm not sure. Also, the parts come from a variety of publishers so figuring out the publishers might be somewhat annoying.) Thanks. Horndude77 18:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the "Songs" is a good idea because there are four major orchestral song cycles - Songs of a Wayfarer, Des Knaben Wunderhorn, Rueckert Songs and Kindertotenlieder. The OM parts are going to fall into one of those. Carolus 06:20, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

No, this is "Misc. Lieder"-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 19:56, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I saw that. It's really no quite correct. Revelge is part of Wunderhorn. I think the other item is as well. I'll have to look these up and possibly re-configure the Wunderhorn parts. Carolus 01:04, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

L'Italiana in Algeri

I assumed that Ras1 had uploaded the violin parts to this like the rest of the rossini, and uploaded the rest, deleted the directory, and found that I was wrong! Could you please upload those when you get the chance (along with more stuff to the FTP...35 items left)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 01:04, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll be uploading a bunch of Richard Strauss soon, which should keep you busy for a little while. Carolus 06:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Great. KGill has joined with the rest of the Berlioz (I gave him the info).-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 21:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


Catalogue De La Musique Imprimee Avant 1800 and Judy Hirsch.
In my defence, I really only do this once monthly...:). And let's see some Strauß! :):):)-- Snailey Talk to Me Email me 04:34, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Church Sonatas (Mozart)

Dear Carolus, can you please verify the volume no. for all of Mozart's church sonatas? Thanks ClassicalComposers 02:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

That should be reasonably simple to do. Carolus 04:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Hugo Wolf Gesamtausgabe

Hello Carolus, I've seen that the 2 paraphrases on Wagner operas have V*/C/V*. The scores don't have an explicit copyright notice but they are definitely from vol.18/1 which is from 1974. According the preface of vol.18/1 they seem to have been published for the first time there. Is that the reason why they are PD in the USA? Ok, then I could upload also the other works of this volume: except for the Rondo op.15 and Aus der Kinderzeit: Schlummerlied I coudn't find any entries in Worldcat < 1974. (However, the Variations op.2 have a valid cr notice...this would get a [TB].) Let me know if I can upload them.
Unfortunately, Manuel Venegas, Scherzo and Finale, and the Italian Serenade have valid cr notice, so I don't think it makes sense to post them if they get blocked. The vol.16 Penthesilea is based (...according to the first page) on the 1937 edition by Robert Haas (1886-1960), probably not permissible. Hobbypianist 18:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I think these tags are in error. I have no idea what I could have been thinking at the time, except that I must have thought they were published without notice and that this was not the first publication. If they were first published in 1974 (which appears to be the case), they would not even be public domain in Canada. Vol. 18 of the GA no doubt has the valid copyright notice on either the title page or on the first music page of the volume, which renders the 2 items you mention under copyright. I am a little surprised that this was the actual first publication, given the popularity at the time of operatic paraphrases in general and Wagner in particular. Of course, the paraphrases would have been issued by Schott - the original publisher of the operas. The preface makes it clear that they were never approached about issuing the paraphrases. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Both will have to be deleted, sad to say. Carolus 21:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, too bad. Hmm, but then I don't quite understand why those works are still copyrighted in Canada. Since published in 1974 (outside Canada) for the first time they fall under editio princeps and are therefore PD in EU now because the 25 years are over. And as one can read here: ..In most countries, including the EU countries, this term is 25 years after publication. Canada grants 50 years of copyright protection to such first editions published in Canada, but those published outside Canada are only entitled to the same term as in the country of origin... If Austria has also a 25 year term for such editions is there still a mistake in that paragraph or where is my error in reasoning?
In the preface of the 1st Dvorak symphony (publ. 1961) is said: ...1st Symphony ....which we publish in this volume of the Complete Edition for the first time.... It was published by the former socialist Czechoslovakia so I hope there's no problem with that. It's permissible, isn't it? Regards, Hobbypianist 14:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC).

You're right. I apologize for the confusion. This is a lingering error from when we (Feldmahler and myself) mistakenly thought that Canada actually applied the "rule of the shorter term" - which we have since discovered it does not (after some discussions with a Canadian attorney), despite there being some odd provisions which appear to have much the same effect (in selected places). For example, there appear to be some provisions of the term governing posthumous works which do operate similar to a rule of the shorter term for works first published outside Canada in countries that are not signatories to the NAFTA Treaty! The Wolf titles may be free in Canada after all, as they're governed in the EU under the 25-year Editio Princeps rule and not entitled to Canada's 50-year term. Still not free in the USA, however. This is starting to make my head spin!! Carolus 08:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

:))...indeed, somehow confusing. (Actually I was surprised at the C for US not the V* for Canada.) Anyway, those works would be immediately blocked. Happy New Year! Hobbypianist 11:29, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Clariperu gives a disclaimer on this page that says that people are free to distribute these music scores under the creative commons liscense. So may I please upload theese files? As a heads up, the webpage is in Spanish. [1]

Allegro, I see PML has answered this already on your own page. Yes, he is correct. We have no way of determining where Clariperu obtained their files, apart from those created by the owner of the site himself. You are free to post Marco Mazzini's work here under the CC license (provided Mazzini himself has not violated a copyright), but no others without permission. For example, I did not even see the duets you posted the other day on Mazzini's site - at least not under duets. Keep in mind that the CC License requires proper attribution. If you fail to correctly credit the arranger or editor of a CC item, you are violating the license. Carolus 08:03, 31 December 2009 (UTC)