IMSLP talk:Categorization/Project Members/archive11

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tag for aramaic and yiddish languages

Ravel's 2 Mélodies Hébraiques uses aramaic in the first, and yiddish in the second. Tags?

The ISO code for Yiddish is "yi", but there doesn't seem to be one for Aramaic. I'd suggest "ac" as one that isn't used for anything else — P.davydov 14:08, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
There aren’t codes in either ISO 639-1 (2 characters) or ISO 639-2 (3 characters), but there are multiple descriptors for various historical dialects of Aramaic in ISO 639-3. However, it is unclear which of these dialects matches the text from the Jewish Kaddish. Do we have any Jewish linguists on hand perchance? Here are the codes:
  • aii Assyrian Neo-Aramaic
  • amw Western Neo-Aramaic
  • arc Imperial, or Official Aramaic (700-300 BCE) — this would be my guess as being the sort of language inherited into the Kaddish, but as I say it’s merely a best guess.
  • bhn Bohtan Neo-Aramaic
  • bjf Barzani Jewish Neo-Aramaic
  • cld Chaldean Neo-Aramaic
  • jpa Jewish Palestinian Aramaic
  • oar Ancient Aramaic (up to 700 BCE)
  • sam Samaritan Aramaic
  • tmr Jewish Babylonian Aramaic (ca. 200-1200 CE)
If we’re using ISO 639 codes for other languages it probably doesn’t help to simply make one up, as though it were part of the code, so if you don’t want to go with arc, then I suggest making up a four-letter “code”, since it can’t possibly be interpreted as deriving from ISO 639 – I would suggest armc. Regards, Philip Legge @ © talk 00:42, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
We're using the ISO codes as a guide, but we can't stick rigidly to them because some will duplicate tags already in use for other things (e.g. "bn" is used for bassoon, so isn't available for Bengali). The codes just have to be understood by members of the tagging team, since the public just see the full category names — P.davydov 09:35, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Debussy, La damoiselle élue

This has a part for "recitante". Grove lists one soprano, the uploader listed 2 female soloists. In looking at the part, the recitante part is pitched, and although it starts on repeated pitches, they later change -- it looks very much like a normal singing part. If it truly is recited, the tag should be "sop nar" etc, if sung, it is "2vv" etc. Does anyone know this work at all? (Steltz)

Quinn Mason, Concerto for electric guitar

Do we want to tag this "gtr", or is it something that should be added to the electric category? (Steltz)

It just goes to show you can never predict which instruments are going to come up! :-) I'd suggest "elec ; gtr" (as separate tags). Anyone looking at the list of works for guitar will see from the title that it's electronic, so I don't think we need a special tag, unless anyone objects — P.davydov 09:30, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
Sounds logical (Steltz)
Update, I added "elec orch ; gtr orch" because the other way it came up with "1 player".
Would "elec ; gtr orch" work? — P.davydov 16:21, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
The "elec" generates a "for 1 player" designation.  :-(( (Steltz)
I've changed that now, so it should be OK — P.davydov 18:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Language, Anglo Saxon

I could have sworn I brought this up before, but I can't find the query, so I must be going dilly . . . do we tag this as English, or use a new tag? It's for Peter Bird's Caemon's Hymn. (Steltz)

Although we aren’t using ISO 639-3 (as Davydov mentioned above), Old English (ca.450–1100) is “ang”. PML

romance in cyrillic?

I have tagged something as "songs" which has a cyrillic title of Избранные Романсы . I think the second word is "romance". Does anyone know if I'm right? (Steltz)

The title is "Selected Romances", so the tag should be "romances" — P.davydov 16:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Should I change the page name to "Selected Romances"? Right now, it's "Selected Songs". (Steltz)
Which page is it? I'll take a look — P.davydov 08:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Selected Songs (Levina, Zara)

variations

Just to refresh memories, variations aren't supposed to be tagged with "variations" + a tag for whatever the theme is, if I remember correctly? So an air with variations is just "variations"? Also, anything with "variée" or "variés" in the title is a "varied" something, so it counts as a variation. I have been downloading these to make sure, but so far, every single one of them has been variations form. (Steltz)

Anything non-descriptive, like "Theme and Variations" or "Air and Variations" or "Air variée" is just tagged as "variations". If another distinct work type is involved, like "Variations and Fugue" then the other work type should be tagged as well ("variations ; fugues") — P.davydov 08:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Palmgren's Aria for solo piano

When a solo piano piece is called "lieder" it is tagged "lieder", but if it is called "aria" the tagging table says the tag can only be used for vocal works. This seems a bit funny to me. Is it really that strict? (Steltz)

In such cases "aria" would be better than the default "pieces" — P.davydov 08:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Knuth, Ihr Hirten erwacht

If a text of a sacred chorus clearly relates to Christmas, Bethlehem, manger, etc, is it "sacred choruses" or "carols"? (Steltz)

If there's no helpful subtitle or description then we should really use "sacred choruses"; however, to be on the safe side we could use "carols" as a second tag — P.davydov 08:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Arends, Salammbo

I've tagged this ballet, because the original was a full ballet. Will the suites come up anywhere under "suites" or would an excerpts header bring this up? (Steltz) (p.s. thanks to Schissel for the instrumentation -- I find those VERY time consuming!)

Suites from stage works should always be treated as distinct works (e.g. The Nutcracker, ballet, Op.71 (Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich) and The Nutcracker, suite, Op.71a (Tchaikovsky, Pyotr Ilyich)), and I've renamed the Arends page accordingly. The tag in these circumstances should be "ballets ; suites ; orch" (now changed) — P.davydov 11:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Medtner, 3 Poems after Heine

I tagged this for Russian, since the uploader put that language in the info field. Then I had second thoughts as to whether the German wouldn't also have been there, so I downloaded it, and the German was there as well as the Russian. But on the left of the headers is something in Cyrillic. I don't know what Medtner's name would look like in Cyrillic, but his name should have been on the right? Can someone check if this is a translator (it doesn't look like Heine either). Is it possible that "Russian" should be left as a translation, not an original language? (Steltz)

It says "Russian text by A. Mashistov", so this looks like a later translation of the original German — P.davydov 16:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for that -- I've removed the "ru" tag. I wasn't sure where to notate the translation. I've seen it under librettist and under language, but in fact different edition could have different translators, so I think it should go with the specific edition, so I've put it under language (this particular one only has one edition uploaded so far), but also in the Misc. Notes. If we are eventually to pick up translations so you can search for them, perhaps there could be a specific translation field in the file template? (Steltz)
The file templates do already have a language field (as well as one for translator), for use when the language(s) aren't the same as the original work. There's no reason why these fields couldn't be made searchable in the future — P.davydov 22:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't see anything like "|Translator=". Is that what it is supposed to look like, and if I insert one in a page that doesn't have one, where does it go? (Steltz)

zither

Koschat's Karntner Lieder uses zither. Separate tag, or is it close enough to another plucked instrument to use that tag? (Steltz)

No problem — we already have a tag for "zith", which comes just before the percussion instruments in the list — P.davydov 22:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Ha, ha, I was looking in strings . . . . now tagged. (Steltz)

Koschat part 2

Koschat is described in Grove's article about Leuckart as a Carinthian folksong collector, so I've tagged most of his songs as folksongs. However, some of them have the title Lieder, although whoever uploaded them still put "folksong" as the genre, and the language is listed as German (Kärntnerisch), which is Carinthian. Tag as both lieder and folksongs? (Steltz)

Yes, that's a good idea — P.davydov 22:36, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

pianino?

Tcherepnin's The Fisherman and the Fish has this in the orchestra. It can't be a celeste, because there is another one of those also playing at the same time? What is it? (Steltz)

some sort of small upright piano? Eric 06:12, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Conus, Scènes enfantines

The uploader says "chorus", which would imply mixed, but when I downloaded it for instrumentation, I noticed that it is only 2 treble clef lines for the chorus. The text is in Cyrillic, so I can't read the voice types. Davydov, could you please tell me what it says -- if it's sop tenor or alt tenor, I will leave it as mixed, but if it's sop alt, I need to change it. The choral part is only in the 10th piece, on about p.67 in the second segment. Thanks. (Steltz)

The staves are headed "high voice" and "low voice", but the note at the foot of the page says that children's voices are preferred, but otherwise women's voices will do — P.davydov 16:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you very much for that -- it is retagged "cch orch ; fch orch". (Steltz)

secular hymns (anthems?)

We discussed before the possibility of having a secular category for this type of thing, but I don't know what the final decision was, and I don't see 'secular hymn' in the list of tags. Bristow's Keep Step with the Music of the Union is subtitled "National Hymn", but it doesn't really qualify for a hymn tag, since it's not to a deity or saint. Can we use 'secular hymns'? (Steltz)

OK, we'll introduce "secular hymns" for this situation — P.davydov 16:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Done, thanks! (Steltz)

hymns secular hymns part 2

I changed a tag from "pieces" to "hymns" because the title was "Hymn for Violin and Orchestra" (by Diepenbrock). My reasoning was that, despite the definition of a hymn as involving a deity or saint, 1) it is the title, and 2) it is possible that the inspiration for a non-vocal piece might be religious. I am being asked now to change it back, so I want to run it by everybody. Opinions? (Steltz)

The new "secular hymns" tag would be appropriate here — P.davydov 16:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Done, thanks! (Steltz)
Works for me! Eric 19:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Ertel's Der Mensch

This work is a "Symphonic Poem for large orchestra and organ". To me that implies that the organ isn't necessarily a solo instrument. I downloaded it and apart from about 24 very soloistic bars, 15 of them without the orchestra, the rest is just block chords. The person who uploaded it listed it as "Organ and Orchestra", which I added the orchestral instrumentation to, but his order implies a more concerto-like role for the organ. I have tagged it just for "orch" in the meantime unless someone thinks it should be "org orch". (Steltz)

A difficult one, but on balance I think I'd go for "org orch", as it would be suitable for an organ player looking to perform a piece with an orchestra (or vice-versa) — P.davydov
Done, thanks! (Steltz)

Lassus, '4vv' vs 'ch'

Prophetiae Sibyllarum comes from an edition of 'Das Chorwerk', but the uploader lists it as '4 voices [SATB]'. I don't know how many voices Lassus would have been working with -- 1 on a part or more, but is this '4vv' or 'ch'? (Steltz)

If it's from a choral collection then "ch" is almost certainly intended — P.davydov 13:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, I've tagged that one, but now I have another -- Anonymous Canons, typeset by Jurgen Knuth. On the actual page he put "3 stimmen", on the file descriptions he put "3 voices", but he was also the uploader, and under instrumentation he put "choir". Could it possibly be meant for either? (Steltz)
Voice here seems to me to be a synonym for part (which it often is), not performer, but I'm not sure... Eric 22:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

These are definitely preformable solo, so I would put vv ; ch-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 22:48, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I can do both -- next Lassus question: many of his motets have text from the "Liber Psalmorum". Should they also have a "psalms" tag? (Steltz)
I'd say yes, unless anyone else feels differently? — P.davydov 21:49, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Progress

I see that over the last couple of days the number of untagged pages has fallen from around 4,100 to 3,790 (i.e. around 10% of those remaining). Well done to all concerned! — P.davydov 21:49, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Preis-Sextett, Op.68 (Krug, Arnold)

Includes two weird instruments: the violotta (=tenor viola) and something called the 'cellone'. According to this page, the cellone was invented by Alfred Stelzner and probably only used for a couple pieces; it is tuned an octave below the violotta (so it has the same relation to the cello as the violotta does to the viola). How about 'clne'? KGill talk email 00:46, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, we'll go with that — P.davydov 05:41, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

translator, Bach, Sleep O My Baby

In a previous query, someone mentioned that there is a translator field on the templates. I need it now, and can't find it. I put in a "|Translator=" and I tried it both in the file section, and then when that didn't show, I move it to the work info section, and it still didn't show. What should this look like, and where should it be? (Theoretically in the file section, because different editions could have different translators?) (Steltz)

Actually your method was correct and should have worked. See under 'Vocal Scores' on Lohengrin, WWV 75 (Wagner, Richard), for example — P.davydov 05:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, did it again. (Steltz)

Idyll

I would have expected them earlier (actually, to speak "meta" for a moment, a lot of 'tagging problems' I'm surprised don't come up earlier than they do- like trombone concertos- but anyway :) ) - but for it seems the first time?, Idylls are getting uploaded. At first I was just tagging this with pieces, but unless we want to create an 'idyll' tag, 'pastorales' (in its modern - non-religious - sense!...) seems close enough - would there be agreement about this though? Eric 13:30, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Our list of categories is based on one used by the Music Library Association, which doesn't recognize "Idylls" as a work type. Although we've made one or two additions when they've been necessary, that's only happened when the term has at least some official recognition as a musical type, and not just a descriptive term. The only definitions I can find so far for "Idyll" are exclusive to literary works, rather than musical ones, so it's not in the same league as "Pastorales", for example. I think a convincing case would need to be made for us to adopt it as a new category now, especially as we're 87% of the way home :-) — P.davydov 15:38, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense. I think I wasn't expecting adding a category really - more asking advice whether to place it in pastorales, pieces?... Idylles in music I think usually have a character fairly close to that of those called pastorales, with the exception of works like Sessions' Idyll of Theocritus which actually sets a Greek Idyll (literary form, but will be non-PD-CA for a couple of decades and change) and perhaps some earlier works along the same lines... Eric 15:51, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Our guidelines would indicate "Pieces", unless there's a subtitle or other designation by the composer that suggests another category. I'm sure we'll review the contents of the "Pieces" category when the tagging is up-to-date, and see if there's a need for any new headings — P.davydov 18:11, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

tagging page and books etc.

We have added tags for writings, but I'm feeling a need to see them added to the charts on the tagging page, possibly in a box on their own, separate from the music score tags. Probably my grey matter (or lack of coffee), but I am not remembering whether we said "essays" or "treatises", etc. A chart would be really helpful! (Steltz)

Actually most of them were already in the chart, but not necessarily in their correct positions (my fault). They're intentionally integrated with the other work types to solve the issue of having musical and written materials within the same publication, but the headings that are grouped together as writings are:
  • Biographies
  • Correspondence
  • Dictionaries
  • Librettos
  • Music criticism
  • Music history
  • Music theory
  • Organology
  • Thematic catalogs
So neither "essays" nor "treatises" are valid tags. Gevaert's Treatise on Instrumentation, for example, would come under "music theory", an essay about the history and performance practice of the flute would come under "organology ; music history ; fl", etc. Hope that makes sense — P.davydov 07:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
My grey matter thanks you! (Steltz)

The Aboriginal Father, Nathan

This song is in English and Aboriginal (Maneroo dialect), we might want a tag for the overall language without the dialects, but the obvious 3-letter abbreviation is a derogatory slang word. Other suggestions? (Steltz)

The ISO code "aus" seems to cover all the Australian aboriginal languages, so that's what I'd recommend using here — P.davydov 09:05, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Ave Maris Stella

Is this the same as an Ave Maria, i.e. tag "ave maria"? (Steltz)

Philip's probably the expert on all music matters liturgical, but my understanding is that they are different things, and we should classify Ave Maris Stella as a hymn — P.davydov 09:07, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
There was a brief discussion of sorts here, IMSLP_talk:Categorization/Project_Members/archive10#Antiphons - hymns was what was decided on in that case I believe yes. Eric 16:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Changed to hymn. (Steltz)

Albrechtsberg, Grundliche Anweisung

This involves composition and a description of instruments. So far I've tagged it "music theory ; organology". It also has an appendix for "playing from full score". Would this fall under anything that would require a separate tag? (Steltz)

Do we need a "music performance" category, I wonder? — P.davydov 09:04, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
"Performance practice" is somewhat of an acknowledged phrase that also covers interpretation, techniques that are implied but not written, historical practices, etc. Would this do? (Steltz)
OK, we'll go with that — P.davydov 08:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

traverso

Something was recently uploaded that has an arrangement tag for "traverso" (Prelleur's Modern Musick Master). In modern terminology this is flute, which is distinct from recorder. Is it not wiser to change the arrangement header to flute? I'm not sure people will necessarily know to look under both traverso and flute. (Steltz)

Yes, it should be changed to flute — P.davydov 08:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Kan-no, Techno-operas

This has "opera" in the title, but the file description says "chamber music", and one is for 2 pianos, the other for piano 4-hands. With an "operas" tag from the title, it comes up under stage works. Any better way to do this? (Steltz)

We could create a category for "techno operas" that would not belong to stage works, but I'm not sure how satisfactory that would be? — P.davydov 18:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
It only really works if techno opera is a definable thing. I've never heard of it. Is it a type, or is it just a made up name? (Steltz)
I suspect the latter, but didn't want to appear ignorant about these new-fangled musical forms :-) If that's the case, and "Techno-Opera" is a distinctive title (rather than a generic one), then we're free to use "pieces" as the tag — P.davydov 23:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Flute d'amore

This instrument (properly called flûte d'amour / flauto d'amore / tenor flute) does not have a tag as of yet. It came up as I was tagging a large batch of works by Graupner. I tagged simply as flute, but the fact is a standard C flute could not be substituted in modern performance as a tenor flute is pitched a third lower than a standard flute. Should a tag (tfl? fda?) be added? Massenetique 23:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Do you think it's close enough to the alto flute to be lumped in? KGill talk email 23:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
That was what I was thinking in terms of equating to modern instruments -- highly doubtful any Baroque passage would be written anywhere near the top of the alto flute's register and deem its use incompatible. Short of adding a new tag alto flute does seem the most logical. Massenetique 00:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Countertenor

Is there a reason we do not have a tag for countertenor or has it just not come up before? Are we using alto or contralto? Massenetique 18:46, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Contralto should always be tagged as "alt". Countertenor did come up once before, and I think we used "alt" on that occasion as well — P.davydov 19:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Countertenor is an odd and very 20th-century thing (there are some 20th-century works written for them, but not earlier, I think- the haute-contre singer in some French opera is also I gather - I need to recollect from where... - not quite the same as contralto or etc. in some ways that might be important... hrm. ... ) - but the first example I know of offhand of countertenor showing up in a work written specifically for it?... is in an opera by Britten (Midsummer's Night Dream) - and unless later examples are by composers who died earlier though the works themselves were written later, I'm surprised it has turned up... Eric 20:10, 12 November 2010 (UTC) (also, I thought we had a 'con' tag for contralto.)
The “haute-contre” in 19th century French music is usually symptomatic of the preference to have men sing high parts that might in other circumstances be sung by female contraltos, or in the context of an all-male choir, might be sung by boys. There are all sorts of conventions for having an operatic role sung by someone of the opposite gender, which are rarely challenged even if you have a singer whose fach unusually fits the role: how many male sopranos have sung Cherubino in Mozart’s Figaro? Generally the tags for female/male/mixed voice choirs and voice part designations are not meant to be determinants of gender, thus alto is the correct tag for countertenor. If we were considering gender as an essential factor in the tagging, then a variety of tags would be either wrong or non-existent on historical grounds, e.g. sacred music written for male voice choirs with boy trebles instead of female sopranos, or parts for castrato in Handel operas. Philip Legge @ © talk 22:10, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, all! Massenetique 01:02, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Bellairs, Epic Ode

I notice this, which is for organ, has been tagged as an ode, which the tagging chart says is "to be sung". Wouldn't this mean that the ode tag shouldn't be used? The subtitle is "tone poem", so it still has the "symphonic poems" tag. (Steltz)

I went by the same principle by which works entitled songs, lieder, chants and suchlike for piano and organ are tagged songs, lieder, etc based on their title and not on whether or not they have voice parts, as was explained to me some while back?... but I may be as often missing important distinctions. Eric 04:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Er, you weren't referring to the Epic Ode, but to Echoes (Bellairs, Ralph Hamon), the other work by Bellairs I uploaded... (and again, my statement holds) Eric 04:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Steltz is correct. The "Ode" tag is reserved for "a ancient poem intended to be sung, usually in honour of some special occasion or as part of a play; also a cantata-like form of the 17th and 18th centuries". Tagging rules can be complicated, but that's why we have a dedicated team to sort out these little wrinkles :-) — P.davydov 06:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Ok. I have accordingly removed the tag odes from Epic Odes (which was -not- done) and replaced the tag melodies in Echoes (which was incorrectly removed.) Eric 07:04, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I was, in fact not talking about Echoes, but the Ode, which I didn't want to change until Davydov had commented on it, but since it's been changed now, it's fixed. As to Echoes, it is for organ solo, according to the title page, and though the subtitle is "melody", the tagging definition for "melodies" is "use only for French vocal works when this is the composer's title". So unless the title page is wrong and it's a French vocal work, it cannot be tagged as a "melodies". (Steltz)
Ah, ok. I think it is possible the work whose tagging I may have questioned some while back, that led to this later line of mistaken reasoning, was a lied for non-vocal ensemble, whose tagging definition indeed involves no such proviso (probably because of the profusion of lieder ohne worte.) The explanation I was given at the time was somewhat misleading I suspect. Ok. (and as I noted in the instrumentation, Echoes by Bellairs is indeed an organ work. Except in cases where the score is a nearly unreadable manuscript (where do Italian libraries put their opera manuscripts, near the water pipes?... not to mention the composers. or their copyists.) or similar, I don't just go by the title page of course :)- and I try not to do anything in such cases, I think... ) Eric 22:09, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Beautiful Dreamer, Foster vs. Baumbach's variations

We don't have the original of this, and both works on the work page are arrangement. I will check tomorrow, but I suspect the Gobbaerts is fairly true to the original, but the other is Baumbach's "Beautiful Dreamer Arranged With Brilliant Variations". This latter one should have a page of its own, since it's not a straight arrangement of the original. Am I right? (Steltz)

Humperdinck's Miracle, a pantomime

This is a pantomime. What to tag it? (Steltz)

Hmmm. It's not on the MLA's list, and it could be incorporated into 'ballets', but Grove gives it a lengthy entry in its own right, so that's a good argument for creating the tag 'pantomimes'. I'll add it to the list... — P.davydov 21:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I seem to recall at least one other pantomime I ran across when tagging. I'll look for it and retag it, then... Eric 03:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
Wait... I used the tag pantomimes. (... why didn't that create an unknown tag page alert?) Eric 03:26, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
It looks like Massenetique introduced it back in August, when he/she was reviewing the stage works tags — P.davydov 06:39, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
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