IMSLP talk:Categorization/Project Members/archive7

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Satter 3 Morceaux de Concert

In tagging, we are supposed to go by the whole piece, not individual sections, but for instrumentation, if a piece is partly piano both hands, but with some left hand and right hand pieces, can it be tagged "pf ; pflh ; pfrh"? Otherwise it won't come up on left and right hand searches. (Steltz)

Yes, that's the recommended approach for collections of pieces with diverse instrumentation (although in this case it's the hands that are diverse, rather than the instruments) :-) — P.davydov 21:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

language

Psimikakis-Chalkokondylis, Nikolaos-Laonikos wrote a poem to go with one of his piano pieces, and the person who uploaded it filled in the language section. My understanding of this is that it is only for vocal works, since the language the piece is sung in is important to note. If a poem is there purely for explanation or visualisation, the language section should remain blank. Right or wrong? (Steltz)

Correct-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 21:29, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Certainly as far as the tags are concerned, I think we should omit the language — P.davydov 21:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

piano 3 hands

We have a 3-hand piano piece -- Alkan's nocturne "Le Grillon". In the meantime, I've tagged it pf3h. (Steltz)

I can't quite visualise how 3 hands at one piano might work, but that tag is fine — 21:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Musette (Musette de cour)

Found in 6 Suites à 2 Muzettes, Op.11 (Boismortier, Joseph Bodin de). Wikipedia says that this is in the bagpipe family. Does this deserve its own tag? Thanks, KGill talk email 19:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

It was quite popular in its day as an accompaniment instrument (though, because of its drone, it was usually used in suites where all the movements were in the same key). How much of its music will show up here is anyone's guess, and I think if it does, it will be manuscript from contemporaries of Boismortier. On the other hand, none of the instruments we have tags for are even vaguely close, so there is currently no equivalent.
OK, let's tag it as "mus" — P.davydov 21:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Piece for 2 performers (Psimikakis-Chalkokondylis, Nikolaos-Laonikos)

This is for two speakers with no instruments; theoretically, the instrumentation tag could be '2nar'. The language tag, though, would be more difficult. It seems to be mostly in Greek, but contains many nonsense words, as well as snatches of English, Italian, French, Latin, and German. Any ideas? KGill talk email 20:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

That raises the question as to whether this qualigies to be on IMSLP at all? But while it is here, let's go with the main language of Greek, and tag it as "pieces ; 2nar ; el" — P.davydov 21:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, it does raise that question...I think we should leave it up, though, as it's an example of Juji's rather extreme experimental style. Technically, any work of art that deliberately manipulates sound outside a literary context could be considered music...anyway, done. KGill talk email 23:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Pinilla, Malaguenita en Rondo

I know we discussed tagging Malaguenas as dances, but this one is an odd combination of a song (it has 2 coplas, or verses, with clear vocal line and the piano part says 'con el canto', so it definitely would be done with a singer), and it also is in Rondo form -- there are 3 statements of the malaguena theme with the 2 coplas in between. Grove lists a Malaguena as a 'type of instrumental piece, song or dance in the flamenco style', so it can be one of 3 things. Since a folk song is a song with a clearly regional character, this would also qualify as a folk song. First, I've changed the genre from piano piece to secular song, and then I've tagged it as 'folksongs ; rondos ; v pf'. I can change any of this if it is deemed necessary -- the part that looks oddest to me is the rondos in a vocal tag, but it is in the title . . . . . (Steltz)

That logic sounds good to me — P.davydov 09:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Haberbier, finger gymnastics

Nothing in the title gives a tag, so technically, this would be 'pieces'. But in the short preface, these are referred to as exercises, and they will be more 'findable' if they are tagged studies. Can I go by the reference in the preface and tag them 'studies'? (Steltz)

Yes, if that's the description used in the preface then we can go with that — P.davydov 09:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Improvisations

I seem to remember a discussion on this somewhere, but I can't find it -- they don't get their own tag do they? And if the subtitle is "Improvisation über ein Spanische Lied", would the tag then be Lieder? The work is Bendel's Am Manzanares and is based on one of Adolf Jensen's 7 Gesänge aus dem Spanischen Liederbuch. (Steltz)

I think someone made the point was made that if it's written down, then it can't strictly speaking be an improvisation  :-) I've used "variations" in similar circumstances, if that helps? — P.davydov 19:20, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I'll download and check it to see if it's in a series of variations, but if not, then 'variations' isn't the closest. The only other word in the title that gives a clue is 'lieder' from the subtitle, but since the original that Jensen used was Spanish, would it be 'lieder' or 'song'? (Steltz)
If I've understood correctly, the "Lied" was Jensen's original work, but Bendel's treatment is more than a straightforward arrangement and so needs its own distinct tag. As we seem to have several works on IMSLP styled as "improvisations", which don't readily fall into other categories, let's create a new tag for 'improvisatons'. I'll go through and re-tag any works that fall into this category — P.davydov 23:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. (Steltz)

I Got Isorhythm (Psimikakis-Chalkokondylis, Nikolaos-Laonikos)

This piece is for crotales, cowbells, vibraphone, and marimba. We have tags for vibraphone and marimba; if we treat cowbells as just bells, that leaves crotales. My question is whether it is acceptable to use 'cym' for crotales, since they are a type of cymbal (although the definition does vary as to whether they're pitched or not; in this case, they're not)? I guess the alternative is to create a tag just for crotales, but I'm not sure if that's necessary given their rarity even in orchestral literature, let alone solo. Or we could use '4perc' or '2perc vib mar'....Thanks, KGill talk email 00:48, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Sumomo-Gi, Op.18 (Tamai, Kiyosul)

OK, multiple problems with this one...but the main one is that we probably need a tag for ondes martenot. I just made one up for now; hopefully the ponderous and awkward tag can be sorted out....Thanks, KGill talk email 01:08, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I switched it to "ond", for easier use :-) — P.davydov 22:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

2/3 of the way there

Great work everybody!-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 03:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Perabo/Burgmuller, Andante from Burgmullers op.11 Symphony

We have two copies of this, with different file numbers. Both are of the piano arrangment by Perabo, in fact both are exactly the same, so probably even the same scan. One is clear, the other blurry.

  1. There is one that is correctly done in an arrangement/transcriptions hierarchy under Burgmullers name, with the name Perabo in parentheses next to the arrangement header. File number is 54701
  2. The other one is under Perabo's name as the composer, which isn't correct. This is the blurry one. File number is 11259.

Since the blurry one is not really correctly done anyway, and it is a duplicate, should it be removed? (In which case, I don't know how to do this . . . . ) (Steltz)

Suites or Pieces de Ballet (several)

Three related issues here:

  1. There are several works where ballet is in the title, but where it seems the music didn't come from any one ballet, for example Rebikov, Petite Suite de Ballet. In fact, I can't really find on Grove that he wrote any ballets (though is stage list is "selective"). I suppose ballet music could be a style, but if tagged "suites ; ballets", it will come up with Sleeping Beauty, etc. in any list.
  2. This prompted another question. Where transcriptions or variations on opera or ballet themes exist, some have "opera" or "ballet" in the title, others not. So some will be on lists, others not. Is it important to make this consistent? I'm not sure it's useful, for instance, to have Bassi's clarinet version of Rigoletto coming up on an opera list (actually I can't remember whether the title for this specific one is "on the opera Rigoletto", but I know some of them are worded like this.)
  3. Moszkowski, 4 Pieces from the Ballet Laurin. Whoever uploaded this probably knew where the four pieces came from, but the music doesn't say. In fact there is no title for the work as a whole, just 4 individual works that have individual titles, and then op.53 no.1, op.53 no.2, etc. "4 Pieces" is probably a good generic in the absence of a cover page for the whole work, but IMSLP doesn't have the Laurin ballet, and Grove doesn't list the op.53, so I can't check whether the source is correct. Does anyone know this work (or Moszkowski's generally) at all? (Steltz)
Hi Steltz:
  1. I've seen "suite de ballet" used for a collection of dance-like pieces, instead of extracts from a ballet. If that's the case then "suites" (only) would be the appropriate tag
  2. In such cases we shouldn't be including "operas" or "ballets" in the tags, because it's only the nature of the derived work (e.g "variations", "paraphrases") that we're considering.
  3. According to Wikipedia, this was indeed a ballet by Moszkowski, so the page should really be renamed "Laurin, Op.53", with the pieces listed under the heading "Selections".
Hope this helps — P.davydov 22:32, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
This does help, so items 1 and 2 will be done right away. For item 3, without a proper title page for the whole work, I don't have a real title to put the excerpt under, so in the meantime, "4 pieces" will have to do, but I still would prefer to find some confirmation that these dances do, indeed come from the ballet. There is nothing on the music that confirms this, so I will look a bit further to see if I can find a listing of the numbers in the ballet. (Steltz) [edit] found the confirmation, changed the page. (Steltz)

Friedman, transcription of a piece by Gartner

There is a note on this page that IMSLP has no composer page for Eduard (Edouard) Gartner, the original composer of the suite of dances that Friedman transcribed. Though we don't have the original, should there be a page with a redirect, just in case someone is looking for anything by him (even though it may have been transformed by someone else)? (Steltz)

The IMSLP 'rule' is that such transcriptions should go on the page for the original work, i.e. on Gartner's work page in this case (which would have to be created) and not Friedman's. Unfortunately this rule is not consistently followed, and we end up with files appearing with the transcriber as the composer, or on both the transcriber's and composer's pages. This confusing situation will have to be addressed at some point, but I think it's best done separately from the tagging projec. I know from experience that it's likely to provoke a hostile response from some quarters... — 08:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Duveroy/Naderman, 3 Nocturnes for Harp and Horn

This is a strange problem that I can't work out. Carolus pointed out to me that it had been tagged wrongly, and would I please look at it. In fact, he corrected the tag, but something weird was showing at the bottom of the page, and I waited 3 days to see if it was a caching problem, and it was still there. I fixed part of it but can't fix the other part. It was mistakenly tagged for 3 players, 'hn hp ; hn hp vn'. In fact, the violin part is a substitute for the horn part, so Carolus changed it to 'hn hp ; vn hp'. The page then showed at the bottom ' For 3 players | For horn, harp | Scores featuring the violin | Scores featuring the harpsichord | For 2 players | For violin, harpsichord |'. I finally worked out that the harp should be before violin in the tag because it's higher up the instrument list, and that corrected the harpsichord listing, but why would it do that in the first place? None of the versions has been tagged 'hpd'. The part I can't work out is the '3 players'. It shouldn't still be there -- Carolus changed this on 5 May, and it's now the 9th. (Steltz)

There was a simple mistake in the master list, which is now fixed — P.davydov 08:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Category Walker, 2 piano pieces

I notice that in the category walker, the only listings for 2 pianos are "2 pianos (arr)", but there is no category for 2 pianos where that was the original instrumentation. Same with piano 4-hands. Are they all in the "piano" list? It might be useful to list them separately, just like the arrangements. (Steltz) [edit] Just saw pf4h on page 2 (under work types) and 2pf on page 3 (under more work types). I find this a bit confusing -- would it perhaps be better to keep the keyboard things together, and the work types together, etc.? (Steltz)

I can't see anything amiss here. The categories all seem to exist and are correctly listed under "Keyboard" and not work type — P.davydov 08:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
I think I was a bit unclear about that - it's just that I see more than one keyboard category box, each on a different page, with other work type sections in between, i.e. on page 1 there are some work types, then a keyboard box that has piano, organ, piano (arr), piano 4 hands (arr), 2 pianos (arr). After that there is chamber-instrumental and some other things. On page 2, more work types, then more keyboard, and in this box is piano 4 hands and harpsichord. After that there is more chamber instrumental and some other things. On page 3, more work types, then another keyboard box, in which is 2 pianos and keyboard. It just seems like people might stop looking on page 1, assuming that everything would be under the first keyboard box. (Steltz)
It's not possible to fit all the CW results one a single page, so Feldmahler designed the layout so the most popular results in each category would be shown first, with subsequent pages giving the next results in the same categories. Like you, I was a little confused by this initially, but he says it's the only technically feasible solution, and anyway the situation should improve this month when Feldmahler's scheduled to be coming up with a new way of browsing the categories... — P.davydov 12:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
OK, got it now. If it can't be done another way, maybe a note at the top saying it's "most popular first, look on other pages if you don't see what you're looking for here", or something like that. (Steltz)

Calchedon

Found here and here. Boccaccio listed an alternate instrument as bassoon. I have never heard of this instrument and could not find any information on it (at least, from a fairly cursory search); does someone who knows about it think that it deserves its own tag, or should it be lumped in with the bassoon? Thanks, KGill talk email 22:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

It's a kind (sort?) of Lute. Calchedon or Calcedono. It was used as an Continuo or Thorough-Bass Instrument. Especially by Telemann. --Ralph Theo Misch 23:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. I tagged it as 'lute'; Telemann seems to have used it as a solo instrument in these concerti (there is a separate line for continuo). KGill talk email 00:36, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Handel/Alkan, piano à clavier de pédales

Just checking -- is this an organ? I've tagged the " 11 Preludes and 1 transcription" as such in the meantime. (Steltz)

I think it's for a pedal piano like this: [1] or in the form of a grand piano. See also: 4 Skizzen für den Pedalflügel, Op.58 (Schumann, Robert). --Ralph Theo Misch 12:36, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Just to add that we already have a tag "pfped" that can be used here — P.davydov 18:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
I will add the tag "pfped" to it, but further investigation reveales that Grove defines the pedal piano as "Pf. fitted with pedal kbd. in addition to manual. Used by orgs. for practice at home. Schumann and Alkan comp. for it." Kevin Bowyer has recorded them on organ, so I'm tempted to leave the "org" tag, especially since the "pfped" seems to have been mostly a practice instrument. The tag would be "pfped ; org ; pf3h". Any objections? (Steltz)

I object!
Seriously, what we could do is introduce them into the organ category automatically (while hiding it at the bottom of the page perhaps?). But don't double-tag! (as an organist, I rather like the idea of being able to find all the pedal-piano pieces in the organ category :)-- Snailey (_@/) Talk to Me Email me 23:26, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Lots of works for organ can be played on the pedal piano (and vice versa), just as lots of ordinary piano works could be played on the organ, or the harpsichord. We can't possibly attempt to list all the instruments on which a piece could be played, so if the composer's direction is clear then that's what we need to follow. In this case the composer specified that the instrument was the pedal piano, so the only instrument tag should be "pfped" — P.davydov 08:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I'll take the organ tag out, I only put it there because I didn't realize we had a pedal piano tag, and Grove seemed to indicate it was only a practice instrument anyway. However, the pf3h tag stays because the title page indicates it as an official alternate instrumentation. (But if the pedal piano is used as a practice instrument for organists, it does make sense to use Snailey's suggestion of being able to find them on the organ page.) (Steltz)

written out numbers

If a number in a title has been written out on the title page, and the uploader put it in in written out form, the piece doesn't alphabetize like the ones with numberals, i.e. Quatre Romances vs 4 Romances. (This example was by Henselt, but I think there are quite a few more of them.) Should we change to numerals so that it comes under Romances rather than Quatre? (Steltz)

The IMSLP guidelines say that numbers should always be used in these cases, but this isn't consistently followed. It's up to you whether you want to take the trouble to do this, as it falls outside the scope of the tagging project — P.davydov 17:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Liszt's recitation

Some of these have been tagged as recitatives, which makes sense, except that whoever uploaded them put the word "recitation" in the title, not Liszt. Undoubtedly this was with good intentions of making the piece type clear. The problem is, it's not on the title pages of these works. I've changed Lenore, but I just want to double check it. Lenore's subtitle is "Ballade von Bürger, mit melodramatischer deklamation". I tagged it as "ballades" because the word is there, but the poem by Bürger is a ballade, so the word probably refers to the poem. Nevertheless, at least the word is there, and recitation isn't. "recitatives" or "ballades" or "pieces"? (Steltz)

Actually I'd say "melodramas", which comes from the subtitle, and fits the definition in our table ("background music to accompany a spoken declamation") — P.davydov 13:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll change all of them within the next day or so. (Steltz)

harpsichord 4-hands

I've come across two works for this in the last couple of days, in the meantime, I've tagged them "hpd4h", following the example for piano. (Steltz)

Yes, that's fine — P.davydov 18:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Scottish Music: Strathspeys, Reels, Step-Tunes and Old Airs

Of all of these, Airs is the only one with a tag -- would the collection qualify as folk songs? (Steltz)

Only if they're vocal pieces, or instrumental arrangements of vocal pieces. But how about 'dances' to cover strathspeys and reels? — P.davydov 18:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Fantasiestücke, Fantasistykker, Fantasy Pieces, etc.

We haven't been consistent with these, I'm afraid -- some have been tagged as pieces, and others as fantasias. Consensus? (Steltz)

"Pieces" is always a tag of last resort when there's nothing better, so I'd go with 'fantasias' in these cases (as I hope I did in my earlier tagging?) — P.davydov 18:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
I did 18 corrections, they should all be the same now. I think maybe these terms should go in the list,along with the other variant 'phantasiestücke' -- not sure I'll remember what to do with them 6 months from now with new uploads!!! (Steltz)
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